Love this, Sarah! You went the distance and with the flow and -- it stayed with you. I appreciate knowing about this experience of Thich -- and of you.
Pretty magical experience and how brave (in my mind) you were to go, to sit and to wait. I don’t think my anxiety would have let me. I especially like that you wrote about the beauty of your meditation and the not so beautiful side. Sweet writing, I felt like I was there.
dearest Sarah, what a heartfelt recounting of your experience. I consider Thay one of my root teachers and feel deeply grateful for your sharing of this experience. I felt I was in Plum Village with you🙏🏻
Do you continue meditation practice? Were you able to move through the initial adverse experience?
I am so incredibly jealous that you got to interview him! What a shame that the audio file was lost, however, just the fact that you got to live presently through the entire experience is astonishing. Your article was so well-written and expressed-- and I am so glad you shared this piece with all of us. It's truly a treat. His books are my favorite to listen to, and I learn much from his perspective and wisdom.
What a poignant story, thanks for sharing. I’ve met some folks around Asia who’ve also experienced negative side effects to meditation - especially during intensive, days-long retreats - but I didn’t realize there was such robust research into the topic…!
Wow this was amazing. I’ve struggled in the past reading about Buddhism and meditation but found your writing on these topics very approachable. And thank you for putting words to phosphenes for me!! I’ve experienced those frequently over the years and through research could never find anything.
This was fascinating. I have an on-again, off-again relationship with meditation and while I’ve never had negative side effects like this, I have often wondered what was wrong with me that I could never seem to reach the sunlit uplands I felt I was being promised. I knew it didn’t necessarily work for everybody, but I had no idea the negative effects could be this widespread or this serious. I wonder if we should be treating meditation as something more akin to psychedelics, ie. something very powerful with the potential to give people profound spiritual experiences and help ease psychological pain, but also to cause deeply unpleasant and potentially traumatic effects such that we would never dream of prescribing them as a panacea for anyone and everyone.
This is such a beautiful and balanced overview of meditation and what it can and can't do for a person. Often when you read about meditation it's either "only good and good for everything" or when you finally see someone speak about the potential downsides it's painted as this "evil thing that no one should attempt ever". You've done a really good job at balancing those two worlds. Probably also the longest substack article I ever read and didn't regret a second 😅 Also what a rollercoaster, so gutted you lost that interview with him!
Sarah, what a wonderfully thoughtful and emotionally intelligent article.
As a late-identifying neurodivergent thinker, meditation has always been a challenge. I've tried many formats, in groups, guided and alone. I too found that I could "do" the meditation but I was rarely relaxed. I enjoyed the phosphene fireworks, but could never focus on my anchor for long. I tried to let my thoughts float in and out of my mind, but my brain is like a maverick firehose. A deluge of thoughts every minute.
While I became mechanically adept at the practice, I found meditation unfulfilling, incomplete and yes in the end painful. Like having a fancy car but no idea where I wanted to go or why I might want to go there. I had no purpose.
In a moment of revelation (I'm not religious) I realised I had no defined core values in my life, no compass to guide me. I believed I led a good, well-intentioned, life but it was vague and reactionary. So, I set about defining my non-negotiable core values, They are - Unconditional love, Smart trust, Lifelong learning, Responsible freedom, Aspirational honesty and Unconscious joy.
I then set about noticing how well my everyday actions and decisions aligned with my fancy new core values. Before dealing with the big things, I focused on the small inconsequential stuff and relationships of my life. Having discovered what worked I applied the same values to my closest relationships and the big challenges of life. I led with my heart, then went to my head and finally my gut before making decisions and taking actions.
Over time this has become my 'operating system' my foundation, and yes I now meditate again, but this time it's different. This time I meditate on my anchor which are my beautiful thoughts, my crazy restless body, and sometimes my breath. I also, pay attention to my physical experiences. Like feeling a door handle, tasting my coffee, hugging my daughter.
I do these things not in an attempt to make myself feel better, but to experience my journey. My purpose is to leave a positive echo when I'm gone.
My fear is that meditation just like drugs and therapy was my attempt to make me a better version of a 'normal' person. Without a firm foundation, appropriate to my maverick mind, that was an impossible moving target. Once I learned how to love myself, being loved by others and loving them in return, was easy.
My journey was long and often hard, but at the age of sixty-eight I'm now happier than at any time of my life. I am still neurodivergent and loving that too!
Once again, thank you for showing me who you are, or at least a little inkling.
Sarah not only is this piece absolutely picturesque and beautiful, your voice is soothing and classical sounding as well. I love your writing and your story and I’m so glad to have found you. Many blessings to you on your continuing journey.
It’s also interesting because my spiritual book group is reading anger, one of his books. He does mention pausing at the sound of bells and taking three breaths to ground oneself and be present.
This was fascinating Sarah - I had no idea there had been so many extensive studies (or results) on adverse reactions to meditation! I went to classes once and never felt I really got the hang of it - often felt like it just made me more aware of my anxiety! I love the raw and honest way you write about the whole experience, and this one will definitely stay with me.
I loved your honesty as you wrote about this experience, and that you included ways meditation can sometimes make some things worse. Well written and balanced… great job.
Wow. What a dream Sarah! I love Thich Nhat Hanh and his incredible body of work. So much great wisdom he has left us to ponder. He is an absolute sage and one of my Gurus. I've been a disciple of his for years.
Love this, Sarah! You went the distance and with the flow and -- it stayed with you. I appreciate knowing about this experience of Thich -- and of you.
This is a revelation, I did not know that some people can not or should not contemplate the infinite void. I should move on now.
Pretty magical experience and how brave (in my mind) you were to go, to sit and to wait. I don’t think my anxiety would have let me. I especially like that you wrote about the beauty of your meditation and the not so beautiful side. Sweet writing, I felt like I was there.
dearest Sarah, what a heartfelt recounting of your experience. I consider Thay one of my root teachers and feel deeply grateful for your sharing of this experience. I felt I was in Plum Village with you🙏🏻
Do you continue meditation practice? Were you able to move through the initial adverse experience?
In gratitude, In Love , Tamy🙏🏻❣️
I am so incredibly jealous that you got to interview him! What a shame that the audio file was lost, however, just the fact that you got to live presently through the entire experience is astonishing. Your article was so well-written and expressed-- and I am so glad you shared this piece with all of us. It's truly a treat. His books are my favorite to listen to, and I learn much from his perspective and wisdom.
What a poignant story, thanks for sharing. I’ve met some folks around Asia who’ve also experienced negative side effects to meditation - especially during intensive, days-long retreats - but I didn’t realize there was such robust research into the topic…!
Beautiful. And I had no idea about the UE phenomenon!
Wow this was amazing. I’ve struggled in the past reading about Buddhism and meditation but found your writing on these topics very approachable. And thank you for putting words to phosphenes for me!! I’ve experienced those frequently over the years and through research could never find anything.
This was fascinating. I have an on-again, off-again relationship with meditation and while I’ve never had negative side effects like this, I have often wondered what was wrong with me that I could never seem to reach the sunlit uplands I felt I was being promised. I knew it didn’t necessarily work for everybody, but I had no idea the negative effects could be this widespread or this serious. I wonder if we should be treating meditation as something more akin to psychedelics, ie. something very powerful with the potential to give people profound spiritual experiences and help ease psychological pain, but also to cause deeply unpleasant and potentially traumatic effects such that we would never dream of prescribing them as a panacea for anyone and everyone.
This is such a beautiful and balanced overview of meditation and what it can and can't do for a person. Often when you read about meditation it's either "only good and good for everything" or when you finally see someone speak about the potential downsides it's painted as this "evil thing that no one should attempt ever". You've done a really good job at balancing those two worlds. Probably also the longest substack article I ever read and didn't regret a second 😅 Also what a rollercoaster, so gutted you lost that interview with him!
Sarah, what a wonderfully thoughtful and emotionally intelligent article.
As a late-identifying neurodivergent thinker, meditation has always been a challenge. I've tried many formats, in groups, guided and alone. I too found that I could "do" the meditation but I was rarely relaxed. I enjoyed the phosphene fireworks, but could never focus on my anchor for long. I tried to let my thoughts float in and out of my mind, but my brain is like a maverick firehose. A deluge of thoughts every minute.
While I became mechanically adept at the practice, I found meditation unfulfilling, incomplete and yes in the end painful. Like having a fancy car but no idea where I wanted to go or why I might want to go there. I had no purpose.
In a moment of revelation (I'm not religious) I realised I had no defined core values in my life, no compass to guide me. I believed I led a good, well-intentioned, life but it was vague and reactionary. So, I set about defining my non-negotiable core values, They are - Unconditional love, Smart trust, Lifelong learning, Responsible freedom, Aspirational honesty and Unconscious joy.
I then set about noticing how well my everyday actions and decisions aligned with my fancy new core values. Before dealing with the big things, I focused on the small inconsequential stuff and relationships of my life. Having discovered what worked I applied the same values to my closest relationships and the big challenges of life. I led with my heart, then went to my head and finally my gut before making decisions and taking actions.
Over time this has become my 'operating system' my foundation, and yes I now meditate again, but this time it's different. This time I meditate on my anchor which are my beautiful thoughts, my crazy restless body, and sometimes my breath. I also, pay attention to my physical experiences. Like feeling a door handle, tasting my coffee, hugging my daughter.
I do these things not in an attempt to make myself feel better, but to experience my journey. My purpose is to leave a positive echo when I'm gone.
My fear is that meditation just like drugs and therapy was my attempt to make me a better version of a 'normal' person. Without a firm foundation, appropriate to my maverick mind, that was an impossible moving target. Once I learned how to love myself, being loved by others and loving them in return, was easy.
My journey was long and often hard, but at the age of sixty-eight I'm now happier than at any time of my life. I am still neurodivergent and loving that too!
Once again, thank you for showing me who you are, or at least a little inkling.
Best wishes
Gary
Sarah not only is this piece absolutely picturesque and beautiful, your voice is soothing and classical sounding as well. I love your writing and your story and I’m so glad to have found you. Many blessings to you on your continuing journey.
It’s also interesting because my spiritual book group is reading anger, one of his books. He does mention pausing at the sound of bells and taking three breaths to ground oneself and be present.
This was fascinating Sarah - I had no idea there had been so many extensive studies (or results) on adverse reactions to meditation! I went to classes once and never felt I really got the hang of it - often felt like it just made me more aware of my anxiety! I love the raw and honest way you write about the whole experience, and this one will definitely stay with me.
This is beautiful. Thank you for writing it 💜
I loved your honesty as you wrote about this experience, and that you included ways meditation can sometimes make some things worse. Well written and balanced… great job.
Wow. What a dream Sarah! I love Thich Nhat Hanh and his incredible body of work. So much great wisdom he has left us to ponder. He is an absolute sage and one of my Gurus. I've been a disciple of his for years.
Wow! He was amazing. I feel like his teachings resonate with me more and more the older I get.
I believe it. It starts making sense in a different much deeper way.